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My Interview with Joanne Gervais
from her Summer Gallery at 109 Princess Street
August 8th, 2010
from her Summer Gallery at 109 Princess Street
August 8th, 2010
Joanne Gervais is one of the most earnest, prolific, and hard-working artists in Kingston. In this interview she discusses different styles of work, offers advice for emerging artists, and grants us a taste of her perspective on various artistic subjects. For the rest of August and possibly into September you will be able to view her artwork in great profusion at 109 Princess Street in Kingston. One of the best pieces of advice that I could give anyone who wants to know more about art and especially the business side of art is to get to know Joanne Gervais. You can view her website athttp://www.joannegervais.com/.
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Rielly: Because you've been painting for a long time I know you have a lot of advice for younger artists who are just starting out. I was wondering if you could give us some tips and recommendations.
Joanne: I know what happens with young artists when they start out. They're full of enthusiasm and the first couple of years feel easy because everything you paint your neighbours, your friends, your aunts and uncles - everybody's buying your artwork and it's easy, it's great, you're doing really well. Then your third and fourth year come, they no longer owe you anything - they've done their bit. And you start to have a bit of a lull. And you're sitting there and you think 'how am I going to compete?' and 'how am I going to survive doing this?' The young guys today - like, in 1970 it didn't matter what you painted, it would sell. If you'd hang it, it would go. There was only about twenty or thirty artists in the city - the city of Kingston - and people were hungry for art at that time. There was a lot of money floating around, and it was an easy go. Two recessions later and the eighties, and now we are at six-hundred artists, more people are educated in the system - in the educational system - more people who stay in school for longer periods of time are developing interest in art come out and want to become artists. But now we're living with six-hundred artists where there was only thirty - a small population - and how do you make a go of it? One - you can do all the loveliest paintings in the world, if it's in your bedroom under your bed nobody sees it. You've got to get out, you've got to get noticed. You can't sell anything unless it's of good quality and of subject, and of media, and of techniques that will interest people. No matter how good the painting is, someone may not like it. If someone doesn't like the painting, you're either selling it in the wrong location, you've got the wrong market, or there's something with the artwork. So you've got to decide if there's something with the market or if there's something with the painting. Sometimes it's a combination. But if I have exhibited a painting in several different areas, and I've had several different clients - if the painting is still here - I figure after all that exposure if it's still here - there's something wrong with it. I've taken paintings and cut them in two, I've taken only a small section, repainted them, taken them out of stock completely and used them as a base for two or three other layers. Eventually, if there are enough changes done to it, it becomes a new piece of artwork, we put it back out, ninety percent of the time it does go. But, you guys, the young artists are now competing against all the experienced artists, you're competing against people have a lot less disposable income - their hanging onto their income - they don't want to just give it up. There's also a lot of better artists - the quality of art has increased - so now you have to be not just a good artist, but well-established, and able to work quickly enough, and well enough to compete with a guy who has been out there for twenty or thirty years.
Rielly: And what about exposing your work through showing for charitableevents?
Joanne: That can do some good, some harm. It's good in that they will take a piece out and expose you, but it's usually minimum exposure - maybe a few hours at an event somewhere. And that you can do a few times a year, but eventually you're going to have to look at taking your artwork and creating exposure for yourself, but better exposure. Charities is a helpful one - you help the charity - it helps you a bit, but that wall space is now gone. I think it's about a thousand pieces a year in Kingston that go to charity - add that up over ten years - that's ten thousand wall spaces that are now gone. And that is a lot of artwork that was donated but you can no longer sell for that space. But, you know, you've got to have a balance. Get known, get into a few charities. But I send out cards - art cards. If you give a hundred dollars in art cards versus a thousand dollar painting, the thousand dollar painting will go to the one charity, will be exposed for a couple of days, then we're done. If I send out a hundred art cards they go out to the hundred people that first get them, they're going to give them to a hundred people, who will show another hundred people, who will show another hundred people... So all of a sudden your investment of a hundred dollars, let's say, is spread out throughout thousands of people - versus the one original which is now gone. To get exposure you have to visit some of the art shows. You have to earn your stripes. You have to do the art shows, you have to do the special events. It might be something like a little place that wants you to demonstrate for kids - art techniques, or teach at the art schools, or bring your paintings and put them up at restaurants. There are all kinds of alternatives, and you have to try different alternatives to see what suits you, until eventually you get known. Eventually people will guide you to the right gallery, or the right agent, or the right location - whatever - that suits you. Some people work in galleries and are very happy. Some people don't like giving up the commission. Well, I say fifty percent of the time is spent painting the painting. Fifty percent of the time is spent trying to pass on the painting to someone else - selling it. Most artists don't like selling it and I say if you don't like selling it - that is the job. That's half the job once you have the painting it must go somewhere... or it's a commission. Whatever it is whether it's a commission piece, or it's a gallery piece, or just a non-specific piece that you're doing for the pleasure of it - eventually it needs to go somewhere.
Otherwise you're going to have so many paintings in your house that you're going to be using them for furniture. So something's going to have to give. So if you don't want to pile it up and make a bed or a coffee table out of it - you want somebody else to buy it you have to let them know it exists. And to let them know it exists you're going to have to choose your master and say 'okay - I'm going to work for galleries,' 'I'm going to work for commissions,' 'I'm going to work for the shows' - something. Something's got to give. There's a few artists - very, very few who make it through the lottery, who do a fashion statement of some kind... dead rabbit skins - whatever it is - upside-down Christmas tree - whatever it happens to be - they do this something. And then just the right thing, the right event, the right artwork, the right timing - everything falls into place - and away we go. Pollack and a few other artists of his time - they were saved, Life magazine did a big spread on them. That's what made them famous was that big magazine spread - otherwise nobody knew they existed. But then you'd better be a good artist because once you've done your splash 'he's the artist who did this - what is he doing now?" And my husband's statement is 'you're always as good as your last painting.' Once that painting is done and it's had it's prestige or whatever it is, you're now on the track to the next one. And he said it's like being on a little treadmill. It's never-ending. If you enjoy doing the artwork you don't mind the little treadmill. It's fun! You get the little shove to go. It's really discouraging having to paint a lot of work and having it sit there day after day... day after day you're looking at it. Nobody wants it "nobody wants me, nobody loves me..." - maybe they don't know you're there! They'll probably love you and love you're art once they see it. But get it out there so people can look at it. And your artwork has to evolve - it has to get better. If you develop a style that's very marketable that people love - whatever it happens to be - or you happen to be particularly good at it, or it's your own discovery - a brand new technique - great! Let people know you have it. But you have to realize that after a few years there has to be a 'next.' But if you're a curious artist and you love to paint and you love to learn that's not a problem. You will evolve. It's just if you happen to sit yourself with 'this works well - this sold - so I'm going to do this the rest of my life.' You're slotting yourself. And there are not to many slots that last a long period of time. Or people will start saying "oh - you're the artist that does this," or "you're the artist that does that." Do you want to be labeled as such? Maybe it is a good thing, maybe it isn't - you have to decide.
Rielly: What advice would you give a person who wants to buy art but who doesn't know what they should buy... beyond what they like? Say if they want to have a good investment.
Joanne: If you want to buy art, there are two or three reasons you usually get it. One is a beginning person who comes in who's just starting. Typically - not always - but typically they will buy something they're comfortable with, they like it... they like it because of the colour, the shape - whatever - they don't even know why they like the piece. Some of them come in and they buy something that's a passion of theirs... 'I love horses,' 'I love boats,' 'I love hockey,' 'I love lemons.' 'I want something for my kitchen/bathroom/living room' - you know - 'over my bed I've got a big empty wall - it's got to fit this,' 'there's a big empty wall over my couch - here's the pillow case... here's the pillowslip it's got to match' - there's many many different reasons why people buy artwork. So when they come in we have to know if they've already decided on a space for it. Is it because you have a couch - you just have a new house and you've painted the walls, now everything is done the only thing is this big empty wall and you want to have something in there? Okay, then you ask for subject - because that's really important. Do you want an abstract? Do you want a marine scene? Do you have a love? You could show them all of the most beautiful abstracts in the world, and the most beautiful... florals - and if they want a boat painting - they want a boat painting. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't show them options. Because you don't know when people come in - they may have their ideas fixed - they saw a painting somewhere - this big picture of a tall ship floating out - they loved it. When they come through you show them other stuff - just other styles - and they evolve. They look at more artwork, they start to evolve. They start to change their mind. They start to look at options. And what my job - I feel my job is - when they come in - they come in with a fixed idea - or no idea - whatever it is - I need to get them to open up their possibilities. These are options - there are oils, pastels, watercolours, there's mixed-media, pencil drawing, little paintings, big paintings, colourful, monochromatic works. They've got choices, when they come to the studio they've got different subjects, different media, different styles, different sizes. What's nice is they usually go through - I tell them to go through everything - pick out your favourites, go home - go back to your space, look at it, come back a second time. The second time you're a little more knowledgeable and you're starting to marry the two - 'my needs' and 'what's available and the possiblities.' If this is what's available and none of it suits, well what here is on its way there? And they might say, well, 'I like the colours of this - I love these blues and purples - but I don't like the subject, I prefer to have this subject.' And then we work to marry that subject with the colour schemes they like, and the technique they like, and the space they like. Sometimes it's three or four hours I've spent just developing that - and fifteen minutes spent doing the bloody painting! Other times it's fifteen minutes someone comes in - 'this is what I want - this is the space, this is the size, this is the subject - I've already looked at your work - I know exactly what I want. I want you to paint this. These are the instructions.' And then you either say yes or no - and that's a commission work. But people who walk in either know about art or they don't. If they know about it you discuss what they want. If they don't know about it you have to educate them first so that they know what they're getting. I find it's really important not to try and get them to just buy my artwork, but to understand artwork in general. They'll appreciate it. Instead of just saying we're going to force them to this - 'this is the best, you can't get anything better.' Art's not like that -everybody's got good work. What he's going to get from you has to fit better than what he'll get anywhere else - or make it fit.
Rielly: So do you have a studio at home and how hard is it to find studio space in Kingston?
Joanne: Depends what you're looking for. When I started a few years ago I had kids at home, young children. And I got into art because I had sports injuries and couldn't do my job - I had to find a new job. So if I was going to find outdoor studio space that meant I had to find a babysitter, or childcare, or something in the evening. I'm in the middle of a painting, it's four o'clock - the kids are coming home off the bus - run home: that didn't interest me. And I wanted to be able to paint until two in the morning if I wanted to. Put the kids to bed, then go and paint. And I wanted quick, easy accessibility all the time. And also during the day as I'm going by the painting, critique it all day - I'm looking at it and looking at it. And I don't have to leave it and come in and out of the studio. The disadvantage is you're never away from work, you're always at work, it's always there - you never get away from it. Sometimes you start to memorize the painting too easily - then you need to move it out in another room, get somebody else to look at it, put it away in a closet somewhere, and take it back out again. So the good thing is you get to see the work all the time. The bad thing is you get to see the work all the time! So it's a plus-minus. In Kingston if you're looking for a studio space it all depends what you're looking for. The guy who does Spawn [Todd McFarlane] - he does all the movies, films, and cartoons - he has a room - a big huge room - empty! With this little desk looking out at a field - he does all his creative stuff at a little desk. Perfectly happy. Other people have North light, huge windows - they measure everything out - 'I've got to have my easel on wheels so I can go ten feet from the model stand... I have my little platform stands for still-lifes so I've got a box..." And this thing is eleven hundred square feet just for the studio. Another guy has a desk and he's happy! When I do sketch artist work I go on site and I have to do twenty or thirty portraits in a day. I have my lap, and I have one of those little rack things you carry in the airport - little airport carrier. I turn it around, put my feet on it, put my little board - that's my studio for the day. I do hundreds of portraits that way. Then I go home and I take over half of my living room to do one painting! So the studio space has to suit not just the artist, but the artwork. What it is you're going to be painting there. If you're doing encaustic work, by jeez, you'd better have a safe place and good ventilation. To do pastel work you need good ventilation. If you're doing watercolour you need good access to water and areas that can go flat and tilt - so you're easel's important. When I do water colour I like to work flat but I always like to lift it up so I can see what it looks like vertically. The thing is it's not going to hang flat, so I want to see how it looks upright. So you need to have access to a good easel. Watercolours don't need a lot of space typically. Oil painters tend to work on multiple works - waiting for one to dry they work on another - and they need a big heavy studio easel. The encaustic guys - they need their torch - not every landlord wants you around with a torch playing with wax - you've got smell issues to deal with. Oils can be smelly if you use turpentine, or no smell if you use another solvent - or minimal smells. Pastels - lots of dust - you've got to get that dust out of there. You can't leave it floating around, that's toxic - that pure pigment that you're using. When you're using something like oil pastels, colouring pencils, pencils - those are pretty non-toxic. Oil painting sticks that's different, then you're dealing with oil again - a lot of people use solvents or turpentine to dissolve it - that's a whole different issue. So, you're going to have to - if you're looking for a studio space in Kingston there's always some room available somewhere. Are you willing to spend that money in there and are you going to use it? If you have it off-site and you have a job, and it's a four-day a week job, are you going to be too tired to walk to this thing? If you are, are you not better with a little easel you haul out? There's a little corner of the room and you come home, you've only got two hours of energy left but it's right there. Or maybe both are an option. So you've got your weekends off - you escape from the house chores - it's hard to work when you're looking at the dishes. If you just leave the dishes and go to your studio that's all you've got to work on all day and nothing else to interrupt you. And when you get the studio space you've got to decide if you want a phone or not. So do I want the phone so people can reach me or not? No phone - no clients. Phone - clients, interruptions. You've got to start weighing these things.
Rielly: How many hours a day do you work and what's your working schedule. Do you take days off?
Joanne: Do I take days off? That depends - some years - I think I worked four years I took New Years Day off but I'd be working Christmas Day and the day after for all the things that were due for Christmas. We typically work the twenty-seventh and twenty-eighth. And then I'll go down and do my holidays until after New Years. And then the phone calls would start January second, third, maybe fourth if I was lucky. When I do my practice session with the models I try not to keep the break for more that two three weeks long - although a few times it was six months - it was a mistake because you're trying to get back in shape. It's like exercise. If you're away from it too long it's like starting a routine all over again - you're unfit again, you're out of shape. So if you draw every day - something - then you stay in shape. But are you painting or drawing for pleasure or work? If it's all work - because ninety-five percent of what I do now is work related - you're painting for a client, or a commission, or a show or whatever reason - that is work. What happened to painting just for fun? Just to do something - 'hey look at this - I got this done' - you're showing your buddies - that all of a sudden is at the bottom of the pile now. So my days typically start as soon as I start in the mornings then it goes - twelve or fourteen hours is a typical day. Sometimes eighteen hours. But I try now to minimize so I get seven and a half hours sleep. Maybe chunks of five and two and a half but add up to seven and a half and a cat nap in the afternoon. If you have a cat nap you can work for two or three extra hours usually.
And quiet time at night for me is usually ten at night until two in the morning - no phones, no clients, no interruptions - most of the time - and I try to protect that as really good, quiet, quality painting time. The rest of the day I've got to go in and out of the right side of the brain because you're halfway through a painting and you've got a phone call from a client. You can't say no all day. The phone calls just pile up - the emails pile up. So you either deal with them as they come in or two or three times a day, or one big chunk once a week or whatever. I like to do it in two chunks a day - that way it doesn't get out of hand. And then I deal with emails at lunch so I've got one interruption and I batch them together. I try and minimize interruptions. Days are long now because I'm trying to be a professional. If this is your livelihood and you're a professional artist it's really hard to get time off. If you go to a restaurant to eat, ninety percent of the time someone comes up - 'are you so-and so? Can I talk to you?' Christmas dinners it's everybody asking for quotes: 'how much does it cost to do this? Can you do that? I bought your picture...' it's non-stop. If I want to get away it's going to someplace with no phone where nobody knows me. And if you paint on site that freedom - that escape is going to be gone in a few minutes because they're going to have a little crowd. And then that little crowd tells the rest of the people and the first thing you know is you have no holidays. So go camp. If I want a break with nothing - I go camp in a place where nobody knows me, and is there anybody around? No - and paint here - nobody's around. That's about as good as it gets for escaping.
And quiet time at night for me is usually ten at night until two in the morning - no phones, no clients, no interruptions - most of the time - and I try to protect that as really good, quiet, quality painting time. The rest of the day I've got to go in and out of the right side of the brain because you're halfway through a painting and you've got a phone call from a client. You can't say no all day. The phone calls just pile up - the emails pile up. So you either deal with them as they come in or two or three times a day, or one big chunk once a week or whatever. I like to do it in two chunks a day - that way it doesn't get out of hand. And then I deal with emails at lunch so I've got one interruption and I batch them together. I try and minimize interruptions. Days are long now because I'm trying to be a professional. If this is your livelihood and you're a professional artist it's really hard to get time off. If you go to a restaurant to eat, ninety percent of the time someone comes up - 'are you so-and so? Can I talk to you?' Christmas dinners it's everybody asking for quotes: 'how much does it cost to do this? Can you do that? I bought your picture...' it's non-stop. If I want to get away it's going to someplace with no phone where nobody knows me. And if you paint on site that freedom - that escape is going to be gone in a few minutes because they're going to have a little crowd. And then that little crowd tells the rest of the people and the first thing you know is you have no holidays. So go camp. If I want a break with nothing - I go camp in a place where nobody knows me, and is there anybody around? No - and paint here - nobody's around. That's about as good as it gets for escaping.
Rielly: So of all the styles you work in - many styles - what style of painting do you enjoy the most.
Joanne: They all have their advantages. I do like pastels - I hate touching them, I put my barrier cream on - I say 'okay, get ready' - and once I'm going I'm okay. But I can't stand crunchy snow, crunchy pastels, baking powder crunch - I can't stand that crunch, it's like blackboard scratches. But once I get over it - hearing the sound - I get used to it - then it's great. Because there's lots of colour, you can go from drawing to painting which is application. And it's instantaneous, you can do a really lovely full-colour painting in a short period of time. So I like the instant result of pastels. If you look at all the colours, with paint you mix the colour - so you're not always as creative when you're mixing - you can mix all the colours you want, though - but you don't always automatically do it. With pastels you're inclined to reach for one colour, then you can see all the colours and you say 'I'll try this one instead.' And I find it's the only medium I can do that with because it's just staring at you and it makes you be more adventurous. But I like my oils, I like the smell of oils. As a kid I liked the smell of oil. I love playing with paint, it's like playing with icing. Sometimes I sit down and take two hours to do a pallette, just laying out the colours I say 'isn't this pretty?' Because you're putting out all of those colours and then you mix it with white and it changes and I look at all the possibilities. Nine - twelve - fifteen colours - a thousand possibilities with it. And you choose how you're going to put it on - thin, thick, lean, or flat, or glossy. Applying with a knife or a brush - lots and lots of tools to play with. With oils you're going to play. Watercolour? I don't know - if you want red it'll be four layers. Oils - red. pastels - red. Watercolours - okay three more layers I've got red. Watercolour makes you work a little harder. Unless you say 'I'll serve it' it does things well, and it does washes well, and movement well, and pebbles well. It does these neat patterns with salt, and water, and alcohol - all these things. Different colours form different patterns so once you get to know the paints you can play with it. But if I want a bright red round blended shape of some kind, I'm going to have to play with it. It doesn't allow me to do that. But if I want this lovely wash effect, or loose fluid effect, it does it beautifully. Better than all the others. So I guess each have their place. I find pastel is my favourite.
Joanne: They all have their advantages. I do like pastels - I hate touching them, I put my barrier cream on - I say 'okay, get ready' - and once I'm going I'm okay. But I can't stand crunchy snow, crunchy pastels, baking powder crunch - I can't stand that crunch, it's like blackboard scratches. But once I get over it - hearing the sound - I get used to it - then it's great. Because there's lots of colour, you can go from drawing to painting which is application. And it's instantaneous, you can do a really lovely full-colour painting in a short period of time. So I like the instant result of pastels. If you look at all the colours, with paint you mix the colour - so you're not always as creative when you're mixing - you can mix all the colours you want, though - but you don't always automatically do it. With pastels you're inclined to reach for one colour, then you can see all the colours and you say 'I'll try this one instead.' And I find it's the only medium I can do that with because it's just staring at you and it makes you be more adventurous. But I like my oils, I like the smell of oils. As a kid I liked the smell of oil. I love playing with paint, it's like playing with icing. Sometimes I sit down and take two hours to do a pallette, just laying out the colours I say 'isn't this pretty?' Because you're putting out all of those colours and then you mix it with white and it changes and I look at all the possibilities. Nine - twelve - fifteen colours - a thousand possibilities with it. And you choose how you're going to put it on - thin, thick, lean, or flat, or glossy. Applying with a knife or a brush - lots and lots of tools to play with. With oils you're going to play. Watercolour? I don't know - if you want red it'll be four layers. Oils - red. pastels - red. Watercolours - okay three more layers I've got red. Watercolour makes you work a little harder. Unless you say 'I'll serve it' it does things well, and it does washes well, and movement well, and pebbles well. It does these neat patterns with salt, and water, and alcohol - all these things. Different colours form different patterns so once you get to know the paints you can play with it. But if I want a bright red round blended shape of some kind, I'm going to have to play with it. It doesn't allow me to do that. But if I want this lovely wash effect, or loose fluid effect, it does it beautifully. Better than all the others. So I guess each have their place. I find pastel is my favourite.
Rielly: And you said you liked painting before as a job because you liked the flexible hours and control of your time, there are lots of reasons. There must be other people whose perfect job is to be an artist but they are too scared to take the leap. In a hundred years we will say about the people who had the courage to take that leap - thank goodness they did it. Imagine a world without this artist... this great artist. But it's the individual who has to make that decision all by themselves and it's a little scary. Was it scary for you?
Joanne: Well, I think it was a little bit. It was kind of - I'm not sure if scary is right it was more naive than that. It was uncertain. It was a gamble. But it was like if you go for a job and you get a job - you know you've got your salary, you know you're going to get your benefits. You've got so much pay, so many hours. You could always get fired though - you could always get laid off - all these things. So there's that. I'd always been self-employed for decades. Thirty years of different businesses. So I already knew the risk of business, the risk of bankruptcy, the risk of great success... all those things. I haven't been bankrupt before, but I've had failures and I've had some great successes, so in business you have your ups and downs. And you have demands of speed, you have to have this done at a certain time - you have people who come in and say ''I don't want this - re-do it' so you have no ego in business in that sense. In art it's more like your baby is out there. But when it came time to take the plunge, my husband sat down and said 'play with it for a year, just learn and paint, go to shows and look at other people - just do it for a year, then decide if you wanted to do it as a professional.' Eventually, when you have a family and you need income to pay your mortgage and you eat, and all that stuff - you have to make a decision. You can only play so long before eventually you have to take that jump. And I said okay: I can do the jump. And at that time I was doing moody artwork. I was doing these black moody paintings and they had to have a lot of meaning to them - and serious meaning, it was art, right? And I was at a show and a gallery owner came by and he had been in business for years. He said 'well, you have talent - we can see that, but why do you do all this moody stuff?' I said 'well, that's what I'm supposed to do - serious stuff - it's art.' And he said 'do you want your career to take off quickly and then go wherever you want to go?' Well, everybody says yes. He said 'well do something Canadian, bright colours, in oils, with children. People always like that and there's a big market/need for that type of artwork.' He said 'we have lots of florals, abstracts, wildlife, still-lifes, we have a lot of artists that do this but very few artists that do people artwork or that do children's artwork right now.' So I did. I started a few of these sports series. It took off - great! But I was afraid of getting slotted, and this gallery owner also said 'make sure you do your oil portraits.' That's the most difficult of the fields. They require the most accuracy, the most discipline, the most training - on and on. And he said 'make sure you develop that and once you're very good at your oil portraits, then you go to landscape, abstract of course, whatever else - it will be easy.' He said to go from abstracts to landscapes - or anything - to people art it's more difficult than reversing it. He said 'you have to develop your skills,' and one of the most important things is draftmanship to develop with portrait art - portrait and figurative art - I'm including the two together. You can't always have a crooked nose and crooked forehead. Eventually you have to start off with accuracy. That carries through all your other work. It's just automatic, you do things - you're more likely to do things more with actual draftsmanship than if you didn't do it. And so I took the jump and, you know what? I had my first show and I made ninety bucks - 'yes!' Today I look at it and say that was a dismal failure. But you're naive then. You're just so happy that somebody wants - hey a stranger bought something it wasn't even your Dad! Or your husband or your friend. A stranger said 'oh I like this.' And not only that but they were going to pay me my thirty dollars - they gave me a hundred and twenty dollars and said 'you'll have to start charging more.' I said 'wow! Unbelievable' So there's a lot of motivation at the beginning - a lot of help and a lot of pushes. And I think 'I have to learn fast - but right.' I had a family. I had to get this business or this career developed quickly - I couldn't play - and when it came time that I had to go to university or college to learn or do it on the fly as you go, I didn't have time for four years of university. Plus they only work twenty or thirty hours a week in class and training. The rest is on their own. And I said if there is only twenty or thirty hours a week training, which is probably closer to fifteen or twenty hours, why not just take workshops or classes and spend sixty hours learning it? And then choose - as I'm teaching myself - the subject that are my learning pieces I can sell - and then go on to the next piece. So even my colour wheels and my bones - everything was sold to pay for me to be able to work the next day. So I did my skeleton - I did four skeletons - I did all the bones and all the musculature - they were all done for learning, but then they were all sold. Lots of people want bones - it's amazing. Lots of doctors - the hip doctors want all the hips, the guy who did the cardio wanted all the heart stuff - ribs - everything like that. So it seemed everybody had a need for them. I even got hired to do twenty feet one time. All the ugly feet I could. It was for a foot doctor who wanted to have ugly feet. Great practice. I went to the pool to find people with ugly feet - 'can I draw your feet?' 'well they're really ugly...' 'that's why I want them - they're perfect!' But all those feet trained me to do feet, but then I sold them to be able to carry on the next day. So if you're going to be a kid jumping into this, you'd better make sure you're willing to work hard at it. There's no artist I know who has a profession who doesn't work very, very hard - and says it's work. And it's hard work. And when they do it they choose their master - that's the other thing. You have to choose who is going to master you. You think you're working for yourself - no, you're working for a gallery, a show, a client, a commission. Some people say 'well I'm going to be a pure artist.' Well are you waitressing, or teaching, or construction? You're serving somebody to pay you to do that. You'll get to a stage you'll do what you want - but then do you? It's always for a market or a show. 'I'm going to do this and get into the market.' Yes, four years from now, then what?
Rielly: You're one of the most hard-working artists out there and you're so interested in nurturing new talent, encouraging people to life drawing, drawing groups, and so on. Because you support other people so much I think you deserve to be supported - how important is it to have a community of artists around you who are doing what you're doing, know what art is about, and go through the same things in a mutual art-environment?
Joanne: You need to have your peers around you. I have a drawing group that's been together fifteen years now and it's really important. One thing - they critique my work when they come in. The put little post-it notes up saying this needs to be done, this needs to be done. I have to talk to them again and tell them I'm not a god, I'm just one of them, and they have the right to critique. If someone can't paint as well as you it doesn't mean they can critique you. Their eye is probably just as good as yours and their ability to see is as good - they just haven't developed the talent yet - talent has to be developed. You need experience and all that, they might not be as experienced at that moment but they're quite capable to critique the work. If you're an island unto yourself I think you start to internalize, you start to repeat yourself, you start to not know where to go - you develop to a certain stage and then you start to dry up. When you get other people there, and they're working it's really neat to be in a working group because you watch them work and say 'jeez, I never thought of doing it that way - but I love the way you mixed those colours and the way you composed this.' Or sometimes you say 'I haven't done that in twenty years. I'm glad to see it again. I'll try it again.' They're training you in their own working. You should, as a group, always be encouraging each other. And encouraging sometimes is criticism of something. It's saying they care enough about you to tell you to change something. Something to them needs changing - it doesn't fit right, or doesn't look right. And if they're not close enough to tell you that, there's issues. You've got to give them permission to do it. Say 'we're friends, and we're working together, we're peers - help me here if you see something's not right or a way of making it better - tell me.' I may have a reason why I won't do it. And I'll listen and I'll say 'you're right, I will do it' or I might say 'I'm going this way with it, I'm not finished yet - but I'm glad you told me.' It's really important they always tell you. And there's that great exchange between you - better than a mirror. You stick your artwork in a mirror and you can see mistakes, putting it in the car, or in another room - great - but there's nothing like someone coming into a room and saying 'the mouth is too long.' My husband said 'the eye is a little too high' on one of the paintings I was doing. I'd looked at that painting for years and never noticed it.
He said 'the eye is an eighth of an inch too high - just a fraction.' He was absolutely right. An hour later it was perfect. Something was bothering me for weeks on this painting. And I kept changing this and that, and I said 'something's not right' but I couldn't pinpoint it. He pinpointed it in just a few seconds - I moved it, and I was happy. But, you can't always see. You know, you've memorized this thing. You've fallen in love - your'e in as they say a love/hate relationship. with it. The people around you will hopefully get you to fall in love with that piece again. And you need their energy. Energy by yourself - they're like fuel - you're by yourself trying to work you have to self-motivate, self-train, self-everything. It's nice to have people there that you have their energy, their drive. They all come into your studio or you're in their studio and - big smiles - 'how are you' right away you feel that energy - the pleasure of you being there in that same place. That rubs off on you. And then when you train other people or work with other people and you're trying to tell them 'this isn't quite right' - they say 'why not?' You've got to explain why, and you have to use comparisons. You might have to demonstrate for them. But just doing that makes you look at something critically - their work - and figure out politely how to tell them how to do it - and figure out... well you've got to go through all that terminology again - 'Gee - how do I tell him that he's got three eyes instead of two?' But it's just some fun things like that - you need to have it in a group. You need to have them. But you have to choose your group. Twenty people don't necessarily always work together. There are people that are negative energy on you, that influence you badly, that distract you. If somebody beside you stops you from a one-on-one relationship with your artwork, or that as you're working is a negative energy, or is causing negative feedback to you, then that has to be sorted out. You're going to have to move away from that person or discuss it with them to see - maybe you just don't know them enough - you're shy - you haven't met them - you haven't talked to them? You could say 'gee... once I got talking to this person...' - you might be two years with a person and still not know them. Get close to them. Because you have to decide to get close to them or to get away from them. Give them a chance first to get close. If that doesn't work - get away. But there's some people who will affect you. Ninety percent of the people I stand beside work fine. Ten percent I stand beside I can't work. I can't! I look at it and I go blind. It's like 'I can't do this.' And it's because they're either way better than I am and I'm intimidated, or they think they're way better than I am and I'm too arrogant to let them feel that - whatever case it is. Sometimes it's just they're negative people and you can feel that. And some people there's just a physical thing - they snort, they make noises, they grind their teeth. If you just can't work with someone beside you like that then move. But you do need to have positive energy around you from other artists.
Joanne: You need to have your peers around you. I have a drawing group that's been together fifteen years now and it's really important. One thing - they critique my work when they come in. The put little post-it notes up saying this needs to be done, this needs to be done. I have to talk to them again and tell them I'm not a god, I'm just one of them, and they have the right to critique. If someone can't paint as well as you it doesn't mean they can critique you. Their eye is probably just as good as yours and their ability to see is as good - they just haven't developed the talent yet - talent has to be developed. You need experience and all that, they might not be as experienced at that moment but they're quite capable to critique the work. If you're an island unto yourself I think you start to internalize, you start to repeat yourself, you start to not know where to go - you develop to a certain stage and then you start to dry up. When you get other people there, and they're working it's really neat to be in a working group because you watch them work and say 'jeez, I never thought of doing it that way - but I love the way you mixed those colours and the way you composed this.' Or sometimes you say 'I haven't done that in twenty years. I'm glad to see it again. I'll try it again.' They're training you in their own working. You should, as a group, always be encouraging each other. And encouraging sometimes is criticism of something. It's saying they care enough about you to tell you to change something. Something to them needs changing - it doesn't fit right, or doesn't look right. And if they're not close enough to tell you that, there's issues. You've got to give them permission to do it. Say 'we're friends, and we're working together, we're peers - help me here if you see something's not right or a way of making it better - tell me.' I may have a reason why I won't do it. And I'll listen and I'll say 'you're right, I will do it' or I might say 'I'm going this way with it, I'm not finished yet - but I'm glad you told me.' It's really important they always tell you. And there's that great exchange between you - better than a mirror. You stick your artwork in a mirror and you can see mistakes, putting it in the car, or in another room - great - but there's nothing like someone coming into a room and saying 'the mouth is too long.' My husband said 'the eye is a little too high' on one of the paintings I was doing. I'd looked at that painting for years and never noticed it.
He said 'the eye is an eighth of an inch too high - just a fraction.' He was absolutely right. An hour later it was perfect. Something was bothering me for weeks on this painting. And I kept changing this and that, and I said 'something's not right' but I couldn't pinpoint it. He pinpointed it in just a few seconds - I moved it, and I was happy. But, you can't always see. You know, you've memorized this thing. You've fallen in love - your'e in as they say a love/hate relationship. with it. The people around you will hopefully get you to fall in love with that piece again. And you need their energy. Energy by yourself - they're like fuel - you're by yourself trying to work you have to self-motivate, self-train, self-everything. It's nice to have people there that you have their energy, their drive. They all come into your studio or you're in their studio and - big smiles - 'how are you' right away you feel that energy - the pleasure of you being there in that same place. That rubs off on you. And then when you train other people or work with other people and you're trying to tell them 'this isn't quite right' - they say 'why not?' You've got to explain why, and you have to use comparisons. You might have to demonstrate for them. But just doing that makes you look at something critically - their work - and figure out politely how to tell them how to do it - and figure out... well you've got to go through all that terminology again - 'Gee - how do I tell him that he's got three eyes instead of two?' But it's just some fun things like that - you need to have it in a group. You need to have them. But you have to choose your group. Twenty people don't necessarily always work together. There are people that are negative energy on you, that influence you badly, that distract you. If somebody beside you stops you from a one-on-one relationship with your artwork, or that as you're working is a negative energy, or is causing negative feedback to you, then that has to be sorted out. You're going to have to move away from that person or discuss it with them to see - maybe you just don't know them enough - you're shy - you haven't met them - you haven't talked to them? You could say 'gee... once I got talking to this person...' - you might be two years with a person and still not know them. Get close to them. Because you have to decide to get close to them or to get away from them. Give them a chance first to get close. If that doesn't work - get away. But there's some people who will affect you. Ninety percent of the people I stand beside work fine. Ten percent I stand beside I can't work. I can't! I look at it and I go blind. It's like 'I can't do this.' And it's because they're either way better than I am and I'm intimidated, or they think they're way better than I am and I'm too arrogant to let them feel that - whatever case it is. Sometimes it's just they're negative people and you can feel that. And some people there's just a physical thing - they snort, they make noises, they grind their teeth. If you just can't work with someone beside you like that then move. But you do need to have positive energy around you from other artists.
Rielly: Who are your favourite historical artists? And what makes a great artist to you?
Joanne: Historical-wise I like Norman Rockwell. He's one of my favourites just because he had multiple styles. He did a lot of art people liked. And it wasn't just the commercial work or his calendar art that I like. It's that he did a lot of impressionist work, he did abstract work, he did drip paintings like Pollack - he did many different styles of artwork. And once you got to research his abilities he was one of the most talented artists that the US has ever produced because he was able to do all of what the abstract artists - every other artist could do - plus more. He was also into the commercial art. Not every fine artist can do commercial art, but every commercial artist I know of can do fine art - and do it well. And a lot of the fine artists have a very strong prejudice against the commercial artists - I say 'why? He does everything you can do - plus he can do one layer past that - you can't.' I say 'you can't do what he does - he can do what you do. And you should respect these guys.' Some of the most talented fine artists were commercial artists at one time. Or I don't know what you call them - graphic artists - whatever the term is today. I do like Rembrandt. I loved his roundness, his richness - Caravaggio. I love the classical styles. They were good - there's no question they were good painters. It wasn't an accident - these guys could paint - these guys could draw. I like the impressionists, the colours they brought in. The dullness of paintings years ago - there was a lot of great accuracy in the paintings but there was no life, no colour in them - a lot of great story-telling. What makes a great artist... He's got to have talent. You've got to have something to work with. No talent you've got nothing to work with. So you've got the talent. He has to have the desire to do it, and the physical strength, the mental strength to do it. And the willingness to suffer. I don't know any artist who's a great artist... Michaelangelo, you all know his suffering with his feet glued to his boots - and that was a little extreme - I do wash my feet and I do change my socks. I will not put myself up on the scaffold and go blind for anyone, no thank you. I think there is a limit to the suffering but you have to be willing to work hard - work all the time. It changes the way you see things. The sky now has multiple colours where when I was younger it was blue and white - now it's multiple colours. You have a lot to gain from it. But if you want to be a great artist you have to be willing to learn. There has to be some humility and arrogance. The arrogance to do it and to say 'I'm good enough to do it' and 'I am so good you must buy from me,' and 'I want to be hung in this museum I am that good,' you have to have that confidence. But you have to have the willingness to learn from everyone. Your student will teach you if you look at what your student is doing. Never lose your childhood ability to want to create... kids have perfect balance. They can do a painting - it's always perfect composition. We lose that ability. Go back to thinking and seeing like a child where everything is fresh and new and full of questions. Every time I look at a colour or I look at a painting when I'm thinking 'what colour should I use?' I say 'I want to do that!' When I see somebody's work I say 'I want to go and do that!'
Joanne: Historical-wise I like Norman Rockwell. He's one of my favourites just because he had multiple styles. He did a lot of art people liked. And it wasn't just the commercial work or his calendar art that I like. It's that he did a lot of impressionist work, he did abstract work, he did drip paintings like Pollack - he did many different styles of artwork. And once you got to research his abilities he was one of the most talented artists that the US has ever produced because he was able to do all of what the abstract artists - every other artist could do - plus more. He was also into the commercial art. Not every fine artist can do commercial art, but every commercial artist I know of can do fine art - and do it well. And a lot of the fine artists have a very strong prejudice against the commercial artists - I say 'why? He does everything you can do - plus he can do one layer past that - you can't.' I say 'you can't do what he does - he can do what you do. And you should respect these guys.' Some of the most talented fine artists were commercial artists at one time. Or I don't know what you call them - graphic artists - whatever the term is today. I do like Rembrandt. I loved his roundness, his richness - Caravaggio. I love the classical styles. They were good - there's no question they were good painters. It wasn't an accident - these guys could paint - these guys could draw. I like the impressionists, the colours they brought in. The dullness of paintings years ago - there was a lot of great accuracy in the paintings but there was no life, no colour in them - a lot of great story-telling. What makes a great artist... He's got to have talent. You've got to have something to work with. No talent you've got nothing to work with. So you've got the talent. He has to have the desire to do it, and the physical strength, the mental strength to do it. And the willingness to suffer. I don't know any artist who's a great artist... Michaelangelo, you all know his suffering with his feet glued to his boots - and that was a little extreme - I do wash my feet and I do change my socks. I will not put myself up on the scaffold and go blind for anyone, no thank you. I think there is a limit to the suffering but you have to be willing to work hard - work all the time. It changes the way you see things. The sky now has multiple colours where when I was younger it was blue and white - now it's multiple colours. You have a lot to gain from it. But if you want to be a great artist you have to be willing to learn. There has to be some humility and arrogance. The arrogance to do it and to say 'I'm good enough to do it' and 'I am so good you must buy from me,' and 'I want to be hung in this museum I am that good,' you have to have that confidence. But you have to have the willingness to learn from everyone. Your student will teach you if you look at what your student is doing. Never lose your childhood ability to want to create... kids have perfect balance. They can do a painting - it's always perfect composition. We lose that ability. Go back to thinking and seeing like a child where everything is fresh and new and full of questions. Every time I look at a colour or I look at a painting when I'm thinking 'what colour should I use?' I say 'I want to do that!' When I see somebody's work I say 'I want to go and do that!'
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The video version of this interview! click here for Part One, click here for Part Two, click here for Part Three, click here for Part Four
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Tuesday, August 3, 2010
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My Interview with Hersh Jacob
Owner/Proprietor
of Studio 22 & The Idea Manufactory
August 1st, 2010
Owner/Proprietor
of Studio 22 & The Idea Manufactory
August 1st, 2010
Hersh Jacob, along with his wife Ally Jacob, run the beautiful Studio 22, an Art Gallery in Kingston located at 320 King Street E (2ndFloor). Also located inside of the gallery is "The Idea Manufactory" which is a graphic design and publishing office. Hersh and Ally moved to Kingston about four years ago and have created one of the most unique and interesting art spaces in the city. I'm very glad I was able to interview Hersh for this site. You can view the Studio 22/Idea Manufactory site at www.s22.ca.
I also took a tour of Studio 22 and the Idea Manufactory. To go on this tour:
click here for Part One (meet Hersh Jacob and see the beautiful work of Polish painter Krzysztof Doniewski)
click here for Part Two (Paintings of Napanee Forest by Stanzi Tooth, Hersh Jacob Drawings, and Cam Schaefer drawings)
click here for Part Three (photography by local Bruce Millen, encaustic by Susan Wallis, paintings by Jacquiline Staikos, drawings by Rebecca Cowan, and paintings and drawing by Frank Danielson)
click here for Part Four (a miniature by Jeremy Ennis, drawings by RobertBlenderman, drawings by Michael O'Connor, drawing by Ruth Dukas, pointillism oil painter Teresa Mrozicka, sculpture by Molly McClung, large sculpture by Victor Oriecuia, print cartoon piece by Hersh Jacob, and a tour of the Idea Manufactory, some publications, and a discussion of the performance evenings called 'In the Spot' that take place in the Gallery. Next "In the Spot" performances are Friday, August 6th 2010, 9pm - Midnight; and Friday, August 13th, 2010, 9pm - Midnight)
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click here for Part One (meet Hersh Jacob and see the beautiful work of Polish painter Krzysztof Doniewski)
click here for Part Two (Paintings of Napanee Forest by Stanzi Tooth, Hersh Jacob Drawings, and Cam Schaefer drawings)
click here for Part Three (photography by local Bruce Millen, encaustic by Susan Wallis, paintings by Jacquiline Staikos, drawings by Rebecca Cowan, and paintings and drawing by Frank Danielson)
click here for Part Four (a miniature by Jeremy Ennis, drawings by RobertBlenderman, drawings by Michael O'Connor, drawing by Ruth Dukas, pointillism oil painter Teresa Mrozicka, sculpture by Molly McClung, large sculpture by Victor Oriecuia, print cartoon piece by Hersh Jacob, and a tour of the Idea Manufactory, some publications, and a discussion of the performance evenings called 'In the Spot' that take place in the Gallery. Next "In the Spot" performances are Friday, August 6th 2010, 9pm - Midnight; and Friday, August 13th, 2010, 9pm - Midnight)
Rielly: Before you and your family moved here had you ever lived in Kingston before, and how do you like it?
Hersh: No, we didn't live in Kingston. Ally's folks have a cottage on Wolfe Island - and so she was familiar with this area. Her grandfather, who is from the States, had a cottage up on Bob's lake - so that's where she grew up as a kid, in the summer. And for me I was introduced to Kingston back in seventy-four. The Art Gallery of Ontario sent me here for Kingston's sesquicentennial and I was on exhibit for the summer. And I would come. I showed my drawings at the Agnes, and at Queen's, and at St. Lawrence College, and I ran workshops, and I scared myself by going into Collin's Bay Prison and having to talk with those cruel people. So I was familiar with this. I was very fortunate in the early seventies - seventy-four to come out here and spend the whole summer - and be paid a per diem, and show art! I had a nice sense of what this place was and we came out here, like I told you, to raise our kids - didn't want to live in Toronto any more.
Rielly: Before you actually moved to the house that you're in right now you were in the middle of the country raising your kids. Maybe you can tell me a little about that move as well, because that's when I first met you.
Hersh: I lived in Toronto almost twenty-nine years as a working artist and working in theatre, and we went right from downtown Toronto out to Dog Lake. We were living in a development of maybe forty houses - with other kid our kids' age so it seemed like a really good thing to do. And with the limited monies that we had we bought this fabulous big house on a rock and two acres of maple forest with trails that we cut through. The kids played and grew up there. So that was what we were doing. I ended up getting a job at Loyalist College in Belleville. So I spent close to eight years teaching there in the generalist program.
Rielly: As a result I think you children have a certain expansion of character I have met them, and they are just beautiful. And they don't seem like city kids, you're right. They don't. So, were you both teachers in Toronto of Drama?
Hersh: Yes and no. I was the founder and director of a thing called Toronto Studio Players. And about eight years into it we had the opportunity to hire a director for the school. We started training kids from ages seven and up. And Ally, my wife and partner in all of this, came and applied for the job. She was one of the most qualified people - she was a recent grad out of the Northwestern University Theatre Program, which I held in high regard because of my experience. A woman named Viola Spolin who developed improvisation in the theatre for children was one of the founding members of the theatre program at Northwestern. So Ally studied and graduated there with a bachelor of science degree. It's what they give you in theatre arts in Chicago because it's technical theatre. And so she was the director of my theatre - theatre school - for its last three and a half years. Once we began to close the theatre we formed a relationship of our own that until that point had just been working together. And now we've been together - I guess a little over twenty years!
Rielly: That's amazing!
Hersh: Yeah it is!
Rielly: So you were saying before how great a location this is. It's a fantastic location. The view is amazing. And you are also very close to all the hotels in the area. You must get a lot of tourists and lots of travellers and so on. Would you see that that's the bulk of your traffic in here, or is it mostly local - or does it vary?
Hersh: Well, we're on the second floor. And that's a disadvantage in running a business in Kingston - because there isn't a 'second floor mentality.' And we're not very well marked, as well. So if people look up they just see dark windows and can't see in - it's highly reflective. Hopefully by the fall we'll get approval and we'll have a sign over our windows - finally after four years! But - I don't know if there is any one type of people that come in here. It's twenty steps up - so that's a bit of an effort and it also is a winnowing process so the people who do come up tend to want to be here as opposed to falling in and asking if we have stationary for sale. We don't have a lot of touristy fare. I mean Bob Blenderman's drawings are the closest we get to kind of tourist fare. So we will get people who come off the boats and are walking around. More and more we're finding that two things happen - people fall into the place on Friday nights because we're illuminated - and they see it and they go 'oh I didn't know you were here.' Or people are actually now coming here. Because we've slowly been forming some kind of reputation as an art gallery.
Rielly: You mentioned that you are an artist and I see your drawings over there. I know you are a graphic artist as well. Do you work while you're here - or do you work in your spare time?
Hersh: 'Spare time.' It's a concept like 'savings account.' No - I work all the time. I come in and I work here - I have my presses, my printing machines so I can proof my work. When I walk around I carry a camera at all times. I carry a hand recording device and I record ambient sound all the time. And I'm always working. That's one of my problems is that I'm always working. I don't know what it is to not work. But it's joyous work. We have a nice big house and after seventeen years of having these kids, I finally got out of the basement in this house - so I have an office/studio at home that's actually a second floor. Which is kind of - it's still the darkest room in the house but - it's got air. So I do a lot of work in both places. I'm set up to work - I carry around a laptop so I never leave my computer. That way I feel really secure - I know where it is. If I'm not working I'm thinking about working. Which is good as far as I'm concerned.
Rielly: Oh, yes. You're lucky. Some people run away from their work - so, that's very good. And are you a writer and a poet as well?
Hersh: I used to write a lot when I ran the theatre I wrote a lot of plays - primarily for economics because I didn't have to pay for rights. So you could just take any kind of piece of writing and adapt it for the stage. Which is really a good job so I've been doing that all my life. I've written some things. Primarily silly things - children's stories. I'm in the process of publishing this trilogy I wrote that I've been carrying around for twenty-five or more years. But now that I can print and publish my own books that's what I'm doing. I just need the stories inputted because I don't write with a computer. I write with a pen and a pad - and I ploddingly write - like penmanship. And I'm not a very good typist. So if I were to have to input it, it would take me another twenty-five years! But my daughter Aviva types faster than I can think - so I'm trying to get her to finish inputting this thing - and to see if I can publish that.
Rielly: Do you have a title for your trilogy?
Hersh: The working title I call The Land of Éfree and it's not really easy to describe what it is. Just a nice, silly, light kind of story. I like reading out loud. I find reading fiction aloud is a really fun thing to do for me. This past winter to my kids we read all of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn. Took the whole winter. One chapter a night - you know? It goes nice and slow. So this story was written to be read out loud. Punctuation - everything about it - is structured for breathing - and pauses. Much like a piece of Mamet or Pinter. But it's a story form.
Rielly: That sounds very good. I can't wait to see it in print. What made you decide to begin the performance evenings here that used to be something you did in a former career?
Hersh: Well we have the space, and we have the energy, and we have the wherewithal.
[Enter Gallery Patrons - they mill about and talk to Hersh]
[Exit Gallery Patrons]
Hersh: When I had my theatre I would often write a scene and I'd bring it downstairs and I'd hand it to actors and I would sit in the seats and I would listen to them. Then I'd take the scene and sometimes I'd rewrite it or I'd give it to two different actors. And they would do the scene. It would be completely different because... different sensibilities - you know? More and more I wrote characters 'A' 'B' - I wouldn't attach anything to their character so that the actor was free to do anything they wanted to do... and I could hear the same scene. So I would actually write plays where the light would go down and you'd watch a scene and then the light would come up - it would go down on that scene - and when it came up you'd watch that same scene again but with totally a different viewpoint. So that was a real preoccupation. Every time that bell rings, that door opens I watch the exact same scene. And that is, 'you are going to enter onto the stage and look at art.' So it could be one person, it could be six people. And they play the exact same scene totally different every time. And I haven't gotten tired of watching that scene being played out for me. So I sit here, and whenever someone walks in I'm just watching the scene being depicted. It's fantastic! It's a great game for me! I think it's what keeps it fresh. Because I find the whole thing kind of humourous. Sometimes I put my nose in my book - and I say nothing. And then I'll watch that scene! And I feel kind of mean because I'm deliberately saying nothing just to get a different thing going on for myself.
Rielly: I think that's a very good perspective. Do you yourself have a large art collection at home?
Hersh: I guess I do. I don't know what constitutes large... I've been studying art for forty-something years. I left high school and studied with this senior artist. His name was Arthur Horsfall. And Arthur studied with one of the Group of Seven. I joined his studio and worked, learned to stretch, mix, display... So from the time I was fifteen that's what I was doing. And I didn't finish high school. I just worked... I knew I wanted to work as an artist and I managed to get into this studio. So I was with all of these senior artists. So almost every artist I've ever known, I have one of their pieces of art. I have a nice big canvas - it was the first canvas I ever bought - I was only seventeen and I've carried it around all my life - and all it is is a circle - a big dot. And it was one of Arthur's first acrylic paintings. It was a brand-new material for someone with the sensibility of oils or tempera. This new thing - acrylic - was very intriguing. So he was just at the beginning of experimenting with what this new medium was for himself as a painter. So I have one of those paintings. And Krzysztof [Doniewski] hanging here, I've got two or three of Krzysztof's. I've got Frank [Danielson]. I have a Teresa [Mrozicka]. Almost all the artists here - Bob Blenderman. So it's kind of exciting - I just thank God I don't work in a delicatessen!
Rielly: So this gallery you run with Ally, your wife. And your children all seem to have a hand in the business as well somehow. At least with the "In the Spot" performance nights you do. I guess now that school is out and they need something to do, I suppose. You seem to be very close as a family and it seems like a good nest for talent as well. Are there a lot of artists and writers in your extended family or your historical families - together you and Ally?
Hersh: In my family - I come originally from Winnipeg - it's all either medical, architecture, or art. And it was considered a virtue to read or to debate, or to undergo some kind of critical thinking. So around the dinner table all my life it's always been like that. Ally's family, her mother's grandfather was a man named Summerville. We have some of his paintings. And he actually was quite a notable artist for that period - middle eighteen-hundreds. He worked as an etcher and is one of the artists responsible for our money, our first currency, out of a printing concern in Buffalo. And then he moved to Rochester New York. And I found some references to him online when I was doing some research about him because we have all of his paintings and his sketchbooks - they're beautiful, beautiful art. And he's referred to as 'a notable person of Rochester' and his studio a place for meeting... and dressed in a rather bohemian manner. So that's a kind of a nice reference. And my Dad was a musician and an artist so I come by it because it was what I was exposed to. With my kids we call it a 'family farm.' So, just as you say, during the summer its hard for young kids to have jobs - our older guys open up at ten in the morning and they share that. And they run the place from ten until one and then Ally and I take over. And the 'In the Spots' are just fun for us all to do - just as an activity. Because, unfortunately, their parents have to work for a living.
Rielly: Well, I think it's wonderful. So will you tell me the idea behind your upcoming Fall show?
Hersh: We've got two shows coming up. The first one is in September - actually I think it's the eleventh. I think we're doing a show nine-eleven! So it's an emergency show. It's a real serious thing security-wise. We call it 'Painting' - and it's two artists - two separate shows simultaneous. Bob Blenderman and ten new pieces - Kingston architecture. And another artist - his name is Dave Gordon - he hasn't shown with us yet. And his stuff - gosh they're bizarre. They're really strange. He's a very strange political painter. He wants to make statements. So he's different from our typical sensibilities. And we have had political artists, but this guy is probably the most overt. He's a senior artist. And he's just come back from Damascus where he's working on a series of statuary and idols from the middle east and somehow incorporating a lot of our iconography of our culture. So the crass quality of - I don't know if it's literally MacDonald's arches - but the quality of consumerism and a lot of the negative aspects of our society somehow juxaposed to this statuary from another part of the planet. We call this show "Paintings" because it's the only thing they have in common is the medium. But the execution and the content of the work are so radically different that it makes it interesting to us to put them together.
Rielly: That sounds great! I love the Frank Danielson piece in the back. I've heard that because of the monumental nature of his work he produces about two large canvases a year. Can you tell me more about him as a person and an artist?
Hersh: Frank Danielson. I've known Frank for close to twenty years. Actually, I guess I've known him about seventeen years. He's been painting for just over twenty years. So when I first encountered him he was showing in different places. He lived in Kingston for a number of years so when we first moved here he was one of the people that we knew, so we got to know him better. With his family he basically gypsied around. He was in Montreal, then he was up North. And he's the father of five children. So it's difficult stuff for him. And the only thing he's ever done - as difficult as it is - is work as an artist. And in that way strictly a painter - no teaching, no commercial work - strictly as a fine art painter. And he's always done that. I know he's struggled quite a bit but he's been so persistent and so dogged. As you say, he produces two - maybe three - maybe four large pieces a year but his output is less because he's so preoccupied with what he's doing. And he does a lot of smaller pieces. He has next to no stock - in other words he has basically sold everything he has ever painted. We're fortunate because he's consigned his latest piece to us - for one reason - we have a good history selling these pieces. But his pieces are... I mean there's no issue. His pieces are to be had - if possible - his pieces are to be had. I have one of his paintings - a small 8x10 that I bought probably ten years ago. It's of the Wolfe Islander ferry at 10pm. It's almost an abstract piece by him. I just moved it so it's hanging in my office and I get to stare at it every day. I think that's part of the buzz of Frank... and Krzysztof, or Susan [Wallis] - maybe it's all painters - but you never stop looking at a painting. It always - it's never changing - it's off the topic, but when I started running this gallery I had no idea how kinetic this supposedly static art form actually is. The interaction of a person looking at it makes a painting change. It's one of the reasons that - I mean it's a great benefit of running a gallery. I come in and I'm surrounded by beautiful art - twenty-four seven. And Frank is really slowly, quietly, one of Canada's really - emerging artists after only twenty years. The overnight sensation, you know? Canada. I guess all art is like that. Same thing with Krzysztof. In just the four years - three-and-a-half years - we've known him. It's radical what's happened because he's got a venue. He's got a place to work his ideas out and then get direct response. So that just elevates them. It makes them that much more in terms of what it is they're doing and why they're doing it. It's not for the money. God knows none of these artists make any money. There's only one artist in our place that makes any money and that's Susan Wallis with her encaustics. I've never seen anything like it. People buy and buy and buy... We ship her work across Canada and it's amazing. But then Susan's only been here for twenty-five years so it's a crazy business.
Rielly: I love the bright fluorescent pieces in the back, they're so beautiful. And maybe you could tell me a little bit about that lady.
Hersh: Jacquiline Staikos. We don't know Jacquiline very well. She came to us with a few pieces for a group show. Like a lot of our artists - we put out a call to artists. Different people respond. They send us samples online. We suss it out. We liked the strangeness. And the pieces she showed us, they had the oddest pallette - very yellow - very stark - of these kind of grotesque, surreal landscapes. And they really appealed to us - the clarity of the work and all the blades of grass in the foreground very exaggerated with black outline and luminous green and yellow washes. They were like 'oh my goodness.' So over the years we have shown one or two pieces - we've always had her around. And then last Spring we gave her a solo show. She called it "The View From Here." And she had twenty, twenty-five pieces from really abstract patternwork to ultra-realism - like just so starkly real that it's almost disturbing. And again with these odd pallettes that... are discordant in so many ways - not necessarily the sensibility that you would think. Yet she makes it work because her technique is so strong. Jaquiline is a nice, middle-aged lady who doesn't have to sell. She lives a good, comfortable existence. She loves to paint. And she paints out of herself. She doesn't paint what is in front of her, but more of her impressions of what she thinks or remembers. So they have this kind of dream-like, internal quality that she's depicting. And I find them really appealing. We don't sell a lot of them. But it's not really why we're showing these different artists. Like Teresa [Mrozicka] we've been showing Teresa for two years, she produces. We still have not sold one of Teresa's paintings. And they're not expensive - and we don't know why. But we believe so strongly in her. And she encourages us and continues to replace it and give us new pieces. And so we will continue to show it. She gave us a beautiful bottle of Polish vodka that we haven't opened - and we won't open it until we sell a piece. And then we can all toast her work and go to work. But we love her paintings. Teresa and Jacquiline are very similar to me. Really strong women. We took a count - we are a very equal opportunities environment. We have an equal number of male and female artists. And we find that what's in common with all of them is that they're all - it sounds almost trite - but they're all true. They're all very honest in what it is that they're doing. And so that's exciting to be exposed to.
Rielly: That's Teresa Mrozicka. She must be a Polish artist.
Hersh: Yes, we have a number of Polish artists.
Rielly: So do you have a lot of spare time? What are your favourite summertime leisure activities?
Hersh: I read. I have a really large and extensive library - personal library. My daughter laughs at me because all my clothes that I buy it's dependent on whether I can put a book in the pocket. I like riding my bicycle and I like walking a lot. Walking is the right speed for me. I can take in the universe. If I start to go faster I don't see anything. So I tend to walk a lot and I carry a camera and this recording device and I'm constantly using it. So if I see some light that's falling off the eave of a not very interesting house I'll take that picture because it's telling me something. I cook. I make dinner for my kids every night, so I'd say that's probably my biggest leisure is just planning and making meals and enjoying... every night we all sit down as a group and we eat. It's the only time we really get to see each other. The end of the summer I'll take two weeks and we'll just go off onto Wolfe Island to a cottage and do nothing for two weeks - I won't open my computer or think about any work for that time. And sometimes I'll read a book a day so that's really what I do is I eat and I read.
Rielly: Well, that's excellent. And thank you so much for the wonderful interview and for all your time here - it's been amazing. And thank you for letting me come because I'm really honoured.
Hersh: Well, thank you. Really, I'm so glad you came and read at the "In the Spot," and I'm really knocked out that you're showing at the Verb because I've known you for a while but I never knew who you were, you were just a person. So it's really exciting. Thank you! It's mutual.
Monday, August 2, 2010
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Goldsmith/Sculptor
July 30, 2010
My Interview with Kim Snyder
Goldsmith/Sculptor
July 30, 2010
My morning jog around the block takes me past Kim Snyder's amazing studio at 402 Barrie Street in Kingston every day. He strikes me as a very genuine and thought-filled person and I'm so grateful for the opportunity to interview him on my blog. If you have an unusual gift to buy for someone I'm sure that you will be dazzled by choices in this shop so full of furniture, Kim's unique and beautiful jewelry, statues of Hindu gods and goddesses, rare artifacts, and beautiful original art pieces.
To take a tour of Kim Snyder's catalogue and studio click here for part one (catalogue), click here for part two (catalogue), click here for part three (catalogue), and click here for part four (catalogue/tour of amazing gifts, artifacts, statues, and art!).
To take a tour of Kim Snyder's catalogue and studio click here for part one (catalogue), click here for part two (catalogue), click here for part three (catalogue), and click here for part four (catalogue/tour of amazing gifts, artifacts, statues, and art!).
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Rielly: Why are you drawn to gold as a medium, does it have a different feeling than other metals?
Kim: Ah, it does have a different feeling, it's a noble metal - it's somewhat inert - meaning it's not reactive in any real sense. Some people find that that they can't wear silver, so gold in that way is easier to wear. It is valuable so I end up making a better profit on gold projects than silver projects. It is beautiful, it has lots of history. So, for many reasons.
Rielly: So you work in other metals, then. You mentioned that you were - you're not allergic to silver in any way though, yourself?
Kim: No.
Rielly: You work in other metals like silver...
Kim: Yes. I work in a spectrum of metals. Silver, gold, platinum, niobium, tantalum, bronze, copper, all kinds of things.
Rielly: So because you work with all of these metals have you ever been approached by someone to design something specifically - like for a scientific reason for example, because they knew you had experience with that metal - or would you be interested in doing so?
Kim: I'm interested in challenges. Yes, actually I did a piece for a man who was an astrophysicist using a slab of metallic meteor that he had. So I cut it and made a pendant from it - this rock from outer space.
Rielly: That's amazing! So what was this metal called?
Kim: It was iron.
Rielly: Oh! That's amazing. Is there any other example you can think of when you assisted someone with something unusual like that?
Kim: I did a bronze casting of detail elements for the Canadian Open Golf Tournament.
Rielly: Oh, that's very interesting! Do you play golf?
Kim: One day I played golf and that was fun.
Rielly: Some people really love golf. I like golf courses. So I guess that's a start! I see that you're a sculptor as well. Is there any particular material you like working in with sculpture?
Kim: The pieces that I've worked with so far have been multi-media. I'm looking forward to setting up a welding area at some point and getting into working with iron, steel and doing some things with copper. I jokingly say I'll do it "in my spare time" of which there is none... so I don't do much sculpture, though a lot of my jewelery could be seen as sculptural.
Rielly: I admire the spider that's on your ceiling. That must be papiermaché? Oh, it's beautiful. There's a beautiful spider on the ceiling. I wish I could take a closer picture of it. It's so beautiful.
Kim: It's a tarantula.
Rielly: It's a tarantula. Is it sort of a beige colour?
Kim: It's just paper colour.
Rielly: It's a paper colour...
Kim: I had planned to put hair on it so that it would like a Mexican red-leg. That would be the finishing of that, I actually modeled it on a tarantula that I owned.
Rielly: Ah! That's amazing! Do you own any tarantulas now?
Kim: No.
Rielly: And I see that you have quite a collection of fish.Kim: Yes, I've been keeping aquariums for a long time.
Rielly: Oh, they're beautiful fish. A very big catfish looking fish - suckers I'm told they are. And then predator fish sort of yellow and black...
Kim: Leporius.
Rielly: And I'll show pictures of the workshop because it's amazing. It's like a collection but it's just amazing, it's like a sculpture in itself. You can't see the walls at all. It's like things are defying gravity. They're against the wall. There is a stack of things. It's... immovable. And almost indescribable. And obviously exactly the way you want it.
Kim: Well, it could use a good shaking but it's fairly functional. Projects piled on projects.
Rielly: So how many projects do you think you have going right now?
Kim: Oh, there are hundreds I'd say.
Rielly: Hundreds of projects on the go right now.
Kim: I was just preparing wen you came in a list of things that I'll be casting in precious metals for my commission projects things that I'm making for people.
Rielly: What kind of numbers are we talking about there?
Kim: Probably forty or so separate pieces in silver and various colours of gold.
Rielly: And they're all cast here so there must be some kind of a heat element...
Kim: Yes, at the back, you can't see it from here but there's an industrial casting system with a kiln to do the casting process - a big torch.
Rielly: That's great! And when you have a welding shop will it also be on the premises?
Kim: I'm planning to build a shed in the back.
Rielly: Oh, I see.
Kim: So a separate place. And my hope of hopes is to purchase a derelict 19th century stone building and use it and rebuild it.
Rielly: That's amazing. What you've done here already is amazing. I think everyone in Kingston should see this. Please tell me the story of how you came to open this place in the beginning. I guess it used to be a food shop.
Kim: Before I bought this place I used to do a lot of craft shows and that sort of thing. I've since stopped doing that almost entirely and just rely on people coming to me which I like. I bought the building in a very bad state. It was condemned and I painstakingly fixed it and rebuilt it and now it's a wonderful place.
Rielly: It is a wonderful place. So you have carpentry skills I'm sure... and plumbing, and wiring skills, and drywall skills...
Kim: Well, I have a modicum of those skills though I prefer to leave it to the experts and do what I do the best. I'm slow. Most of those things when there people who are skilled in it it's much better for them to do it and for me to do what I do and pay them.
Rielly: Yeah, that's a good idea. So you came upon this food store which was condemned. And there was nothing here when you came to it.
Kim: Oh, well it was empty - mostly empty - but there were still the old coolers that I had to scrap. Things like that. I had to completely rewire the entire building and fix the roof that drained into the middle of the building - so it was a waterfall in here whenever it rained.
Rielly: Wow!
Kim: That's why we got a good price.
Rielly: So were you looking for a place to open up shop first or did you see this place first and then have the idea to open up this place.
Kim: I wanted a place that had a commercial aspect. More to set up a more accessible studio. I didn't really plan it as a store but that kind of evolvedwhen I had the location and it catered to some of my interest in old beautiful objects and selling them.
Rielly: I see your son is playing with a magnet.
Kim: They're magic... How do they work?
Rielly: Exactly - how do they work? Well, they're magic. We have no idea.
Kim: I have an idea.
Rielly: Have you? What's the idea?
Kim: I think it's a projection of the quantum forces that somehow get focused out into this realm of reality.
Rielly: That makes sense, because we know that electrons sometimes work in groups together and do the same things together even if they're far apart... so maybe it's a function of that?
Kim: Something along those lines I'd like to have somebody who knows a lot more about quantum physics talk to me about it.
Rielly: Yeah, I'm very interested in quantum physics as well. But I don't know much about it.
Kim: It's a very strange place.
Rielly: It is a strange place! That means this is a strange place too. Well, I think it's a miracle that we even walk and talk.
Kim: Oh it is.
Rielly: You know, because were just big piles of hydrogen and nitrogen...
Kim: All these fantastically intricate systems working automatically. It's highly unlikely.
Rielly: It is highly unlikely. So what year was it that you first came here?
Kim: Ninety-two.
Rielly: And then how long before you were sort of in business?
Kim: Oh, I was in business continually. I've always been doing commission work and some wholesaling but I've kind of moved away from that as well. I used to wholesale all across Canada to various galleries and shops. And actually before that I used to sell all across North America.
Rielly: And what made you stop that?
Kim: Well selling the States was a big pain. Just trying to get things across the border was expensive and I couldn't count on a cost - the cost was always different depending on the day and which customs agent you got on which day. It was just too much trouble. And sometimes people across the border didn't feel so obliged to pay me. So, there was that.
Rielly: So it was much better just to concentrate your business.
Kim: Yeah, and I have more work coming my way than I could ever really handle so that's all I need.
Rielly: That's great! So do you ever refer people to other metalworkers?
Kim: Sometimes. If I have a big order I look into production out of shop, sometimes I have help with it. I have had apprentices at various times that have helped me with work. Right now I'm on my own.
Rielly: That's good. So you were doing your own thing before this, but did you ever have a shop like this before, like this one?
Kim: Yeah, I had a shop in Toronto called the "Dancing Cow Art Refinery." A friend and I set it up. It was two jewelers and all kinds of eclectic materials and art. We were just down the street from where Peter Ackroyd had this speakeasy a long time ago. We got to know him.
Rielly: Peter Ackroyd the author?
Kim: Dan Ackroyd's brother.
Rielly: Oh! Okay, that's cool... Is he a writer?
Kim: He was a silkscreen artist at that point I don't know what he's doing now.
Rielly: So when you came to Kingston what was the impetus for that move?
Kim: You know: get out of Toronto. I had been there for fifteen years. That was more than enough.
Rielly: What do you like about Kingston?
Kim: I'm close to my family, which is great. My mother is just a few blocks away. I'm over fixing her ponds regularly. And you can walk downtown from here. Just the negatives of living in Toronto outweigh the positives for me. You have to make an awful lot of money to live well there.
Rielly: So I know that you travel to India, do you prefer India to every other country for travelling that you have visited?
Kim: I've found wonderful things in really different places. India is a unique experience, it's an awe-inspiring place, the people are amazing. I enjoy being in Poland, I enjoy being in Australia, I enjoy being in England. All places have their charm so far, I've found no place I've hated.
Rielly: That's good! So do you collect the artifacts that I see all around me in all of those places.
Kim: Well it's been many years since I've been anyplace other than India. When I was there I did purchase a lot of these objects but most of it has come to me from people who know my tastes and they bring me odd things.
Rielly: In Marion Woodman's amazing biography - I don't know if you read it - Addiction to Perfection, she relays the story of her first visit to India, and immersed in a milieu so foreign to her own experiences deep and mind-bending culture shock. Another Western woman who had been living in India for some time recognized her state, took her aside and told her she should go home. Which was actually probably the best idea but she didn't end up going home. Have you ever experienced that kind of culture shock in India or anywhere else. And if you haven't, why not?
Kim: Oh, yeah, India was definitely a culture shock. It's quite different from anything I've experienced before and I found myself struggling to put my finger on it after I came back from my first trip. It continues to inspire. The people have a grace, wisdom. It is a jaw-dropping experience. And driving while there is one of the most difficult things you can do in the world.
Rielly: Because there's no order in some of the streets?
Kim: Let's put it this way, you have to look both ways on one way streets.
Rielly: So your shop is full of statues of Hindu gods and goddesses which is very cool. You must have a very good relationship with Hinduism. I myself love Hindu art. Why do you find it so attractive? Do you have a special place in your heart for Indian sacred text as well?
Kim: No, I have no theological interest. I find them aesthetically pleasing and the stories fascinating. The Tales of Arjuna I listened to on CBC Radio - that was interesting. I still have a lot to learn about the various incarnations of the various deities.
Rielly: So, do you have a favourite Hindu statue or deity.
Kim: Ganesha
Rielly: Ganesh? Yeah, I like Ganesh too. What do you like about polytheism - is there anything? Or do you feel that you just came upon Hinduism and like the art and that's enough for you - or do you feel that you're sort of attracted to that kind of thinking?
Kim: I'm an atheist. But I find the trappings of religion interesting.
Rielly: Of every kind of religion?
Kim: Yes, the old churches in downtown Toronto are aesthetically astonishing. I find American fundamentalism scary and garish.
Rielly: But obviously you believe in magic! You were talking about it earlier.
Kim: I'm an agnostic. "Show me."
Rielly: So are you living in the country that you want to live in and the city - from a theoretical point of view?
Kim: Yes!
Rielly: That's great! I'm so glad!
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